What is the Difference Between the Baptism and the Filling?

Charismatics often confuse spirit baptism, which places the Christian in the body of Christ, and the fullness of the Spirit, which produces effective Christian living (see Eph. 5:18, 6:11).

Nothing in all of Acts, Chapter 2, says believers asked for the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:1-4 teaches two distinctive truths.  At Pentecost, Christian believers were baptized with the Holy Spirit into the body.  Then the Holy Spirit filled those believers to give a miraculous testimony -- the ability to speak in other languages.  Believers since that time have all been baptized with the Holy Spirit by the Lord Jesus Christ at conversion.  How are we filled?  When we yield to the Spirit who is already there, we have access to the Spirit's power and fullness.  Paul told the Ephesians to be kept filled with the Spirit as a constant pattern for living (5:18).

Nowhere in Scripture is the Christian taught to tarry and wait for the baptism. Nowhere in Scripture are we taught to get with a group of people who can teach us to speak in tongues.  Christians are admonished to keep being filled with the Spirit, but that is not the same thing as waiting to be baptized by the Spirit.  There is one simple key to knowing the fullness and power of the Holy Spirit in your life:  obeying the Lord.  As you walk in obedience to the word of God, the Spirit of God fills you and energizes your life (see Gal. 5:25).

Not only have believers been placed into Someone (Christ), but they have had Someone placed into them (the Holy Spirit).  As Christians we have the Holy Spirit.  Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit (I Cor. 6:19).  God Himself indwells our bodies (II Cor. 6:16).  All the resources are there.  The promise of the Holy Spirit has already been fulfilled for us.  The Bible is absolutely clear on that point.  There is nothing more to wait for.  The Christian life consists of yielding to the control of the Spirit who is already in us.  We do that through obedience to the Word (Col. 3:16).

Significantly, charismatic writers are not all agreed on how believers are to receive the baptism of the Spirit.  Why all the confusion and contradiction?  Why is it that charismatic writers do not quote the Bible plainly and let it go at that?  The reason no charismatic writer can do that is the Bible never tells how to get the baptism of the Spirit; it only tells believers that they are already baptized with the Spirit.  

One of the greatest realities the Christian will ever have is contained in two brief and fulfilling statements.  One is by Paul,  The other is by Peter:

"In Him, you have been made complete" (Col. 2:10).  

"His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness" (2 Peter 1:3).

There is no point in seeking what is already ours.

- John F. MacArthur

Pentecostals are wrong.  
Faith Movement are wrong.  
Victory Churches are wrong.

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong!

Satan is responsible for what is going on in these churches -- not God.

NOW HEAR THIS ! !

Regular Fellowship With Demons (7 of 8)

SUPERNATURAL ELEMENT

The more spiritually discerning readers should be able to see that in order to gain acceptance with the masses, the World Church must of necessity have a supernatural element.  Since the God of Heaven would never give His blessing to such a "witch-doctor's brew" as this, then the supernatural element will have to be supplied by Satan -- and it has been.

The supernatural element in this poisonous mixture is Spiritism.  Yes!  The once despised but now respectable cult of Spiritism will, I believe, be the deadliest element in Satan's brew of abominations to seduce Evangelical Christians.

Those of us who have been counselling in the area of the Occult have observed that evil spirits have been progressively extending their influence in the sphere of professing Christianity.  The extension of influence on the part of evil spirits is in exact proportion to the diminishing emphasis on the absolute Authority of the Bible.

THE SNARE

Most tongues speaking people will of course readily agree that the Bible is the authoritative Word of God, yet many claim to have new and more timely revelations direct from the Spirit of God.  But I would like to point out here, that it has been our experience that any revelations apart from the written Word can very easily be given by evil spirits, and herein lies the snare, because once we depart from the written Word, we are immediately launched on to the sea of uncertainty and are open to the influence of "deceiving spirits."

A SOLEMN WARNING

Now all thoughtful readers are going to realize that the material that has been set forth here has extremely serious ramifications.  Because of this and knowing what I have observed through counselling tongues-speaking people, I urge all people now in churches where "speaking in tongues" is practiced, to GET OUT, because you are in DANGER!  Find another fellowship somewhere that is free of spiritualistic phenomena.  Even if you have to travel a long distance to attend, it will be well worth both the effort and expense.

To those NOT in tongues-speaking churches, I issue this word of warning.  Because of the rapid spread of this phenomenon, there will eventually come a time when you will be confronted with this matter. [see previous blog comments.]  You will be urged to seek this supposed "gift of tongues."  Well-meaning but deceived people will pressure you to "let your mind go blank" so the Holy Spirit can speak through you.  If you yield to this impulse and relinquish control of your mind, you will eventually discover as thousands are now finding, that it will not be the Holy Spirit that you come in contact with, but an evil spirit, impersonating Him and the end results can be devastating.  It is my prayer that the Lord will give you much wisdom and enable you to avoid the deception that I have outlined here.

THE END RESULTS

After many years of counselling people who have been "slain in the spirit" or "spoken in tongues" or who have been "prayed over in tongues" or "laid hands upon," we have been forced to the conclusion that almost all have problems.  These problems vary greatly.  They include emotional, physical, mental, psychological, moral, social and of course spiritual problems.  These problems have been directly caused by the people concerned coming into contact with demons.  In a large proportion of cases, they have actually come under demonic control.  What begins as a casual contact with demons through speaking in tongues, often progresses to "regular fellowship with demons."

The end result is, as could be expected, most of these people are, in the long term, devastated.  They are lured into a supernatural bondage that can only be broken by supernatural means.  A very high percentage want nothing more to do with Christianity or the Bible.  The human wreckage resulting from this diabolical deception can now be found scattered all across the gray landscape of our society.  Some, after having been hurt so badly, try to pick up the pieces and immerse themselves in worldly pleasure.  Others crack under the pressure and are institutionalized.  Many who come to us seeking help are so tormented by demons that they openly declare that if release cannot be found, then suicide is the only course of action left to them.

My prayer is that godly Pastors and Bible Teachers everywhere will not only "feed the flock of God" but faithfully warn the sheep not to go seeking ecstatic experiences outside what is clearly taught in Scripture.

If we wander from the path of clearly revealed truth, God will not save us from delusion.

Satan's Ten Most Believable Lies by Dave Breese

From the Introduction

There is a form of satanic activity that is more deadly than witchcraft. Serious damage has been done in naive personalities because of overt spiritualist activity, but far greater havoc has been wrought by another kind of satanism, the covert production and propagation of false doctrine. The enemy has produced a significant triumph when he can spread in our society a broad set of false views about God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, sin, the purpose of life, and other imperative parts of Christian doctrine. For every one person who is subverted by Satan worship, thousands are enmeshed in Satan's more deadly trap: doctrinal error. People who are otherwise perfectly rational, who would not dream of attending a seance, are, nevertheless, the more thoroughly undermined simply because they believe the wrong thing.

Satan's trafficking in false doctrine is more dangerous than spiritism. Few inquiries could then be more helpful than to examine the doctrines of Satan in the hope of deliverance from his mind-destroying theology.

From the Back Cover

Satanic activity on earth takes many forms. His overt activities -- witchcraft, sorcery, and related occult practices -- are well-known in many circles. But more devastating may be his covert attacks on unsuspecting victims. While Satan's public activity has deceived millions, he has led astray other millions with false doctrine.

Satan's Ten Most Believable Lies describes ten of the enemy's false doctrines. Each chapter defines a satanic lie and compares it to the truth found in Scripture. Learn to avoid falling into the pit of deception, as well as how to fight each lie. Author Dave Breese reveals the truth about these ten satanic lies:

• God Is a Cosmic Sadist
• God Is a Liar
• Man Is God's Slave
• Man Serves God Only for Human Rewards
• Adversity Results in Turning from God
• This Life Is Everything
• God Is a Magician Working Miracles on Demand
• God's Promises Are for Our Worldly Profit
• Satan's Way Is the Best Way
• God Has No Purpose for Your Life

Active, strong resistance is the way to defeat Satan. Strengthen your faith and put on the armour of God to resist the pervading influence of false doctrine from the prince of darkness.

From Chapter 12 - The Question That Remains

...while evangelical Christianity has grown commendably in these years, it still possesses a major problem, spiritual vulnerability. Dozens of well-promoted cults and sects are experiencing a field day, in that they are able to beguile thousands of immature and naive Christians into their simplistic and pseudo-authoritarian religions. Spiritual carnage has resulted in the lives of multiplied thousands of babes in Christ, for want of a development in the use of the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God. They have been subverted by Satan into sweet-sounding but false religions, only because of their lack of biblical knowledge.

Indeed, this is becoming a most serious problem within the church. Ours has been a generation of evangelism...today's media have made it possible for the eternal message to be brought to major segments of the population of the world...the problem is that the wide dissemination of seed sowing evangelism has been but fractionally matched by an equally wide teaching of sound, biblical doctrine. The consequence is that among the masses who claim to know Christ, there are relative few who are able to give a reason for the hope that is in them.

The presence of spiritual quickening along with the absence of strong doctrine has created the great problem in the church of our present age, cultic vulnerability. Like the Galatians, who began well in the faith but soon became re-enslaved to the law of Moses, Christians today are in danger of being victimized by one of the many clever systems that claim to be the full or the complete version of Christianity. Only a solid program of Bible study can prevent the spiritually naive from being beguiled away from the simplicity that is in Christ...

In whatever circumstances, the Christian watches and prays, for he knows that he is being relentlessly stalked by Satan, his determined foe. Transforming himself into a roaring lion, an angel of light, a grievous wolf, or even a loving friend, his enemy is the fateful hunter so long as this human life shall last -- which is not forever. We are taught that the day is coming in which Satan and his cohorts shall be cast into the lake of fire, forever banished from the presence of God and from the possibility of plaguing the steps of the Christian...

This book may be purchased at www.amazon.com.

Merry Christmas, Y'All !

Davis Smith says -- What horror stories some of these people have. I am glad that you published the list of these cult leaders.

Gillian Andersen says -- Having read a lot these people's stories, it amazes me how things can get so out of hand in such a short time. At least that's what it sounds like. I am praying for all that God will restore the families.

The Grand Poo-Bah says -- Thank you for your prayers and please continue to pray. Things got out of hand quickly because of the power of television. The Faith Movement owns and operates Trinity Broadcasting Network and therefore has a world-wide audience to enable them to spread the garbage that they are teaching.

Menhardt Ryker says -- I'd like to say that your blog has really opened my eyes to some of these insidious things that are going on in the so-called Christian community. The fact that these cults are on television every week is frightening. There needs to be a grass-roots revolt against these groups.

The Grand Poo-Bah says -- True Christians need to be demonstrating at all of these churches with placards every week. They are on TV because they can be. Unsuspecting Christians are sending them money to supposedly spread the Gospel. This allows them to pay for television time to perpetuate their false teachings world-wide and it gives them access into millions of homes. The simple answer to this is to stop sending money.

Gayle Grisham says -- My children have been drawn deeper and deeper into one of these churches. At first, I didn't really see what was going on but I have just been uninvited for the holidays because their "new" family is coming. We always had a good relationship before they started believing that if they gave "seed" faith, they would be hugely rewarded here...there is no basis for this in anything that I have read.

The Grand Poo-Bah says -- This story is a good example of how these groups, with the help of Satan, are using brainwashing and mind control to ruin families. The Grand Poo-Bah's family also refers to other members of their "church" as "mom & dad." This will be the third Christmas I haven't seen my three kids or seven grandchildren. These cults instruct their people to have nothing to do with anybody who disagrees with their teachings.

"Seed" faith appears nowhere in Scripture. This is a concept developed by the Faith Movement leaders to get people to part with large sums of their hard-earned money with the promise of a huge return on the investment. "Seed" faith has allowed these corrupt faith leaders to amass huge fortunes. It was a very clever scheme that worked. The Christian community continues to build their fortunes week after week and allows them to own cattle ranches and multiple lavish homes around the world. The answer to this problem is simple -- keep your hard-earned money!

Erika Harrison says -- I would like to add my story. Last year my fiance met a pastor at some function. He was invited to an event at this guy's church. He really liked it so decided to keep going to the men's meetings once a week. (We were new to the town and really didn't know anybody.) Within six months, he had broken up with me because I refused to go to the church with him. Now just over a year after his first meeting, he is married to someone at the church that was hand-picked by the pastor. His parents were devasted because he didn't even tell them that we had broken up.

B. & G. Adams says -- Our story is very similar to yours. Our two sons and their families have been involved with a Word of Faith church now for almost six years. We have not seen them or their families for four years. Their new spiritual family (the church) controls everything that they do...or that's how it seems to us. Please add us to your prayer list for restoration of our family. We are praying for everyone on the list.

The Grand Poo-Bah says -- Rest assured that we will be praying for you. My youngest son was a youth pastor for one of Bishop Keith Butler's churches in Toronto (no Bible-school training). It's a Word of Faith church. Butler has apparently raised enough money from unsuspecting Christians through his network of churches world-wide to work on running for the United States Senate. God forbid that this should ever happen.

The McIntosh Family says -- Give it up. You and these writers have no idea how wonderful it is to be part of a great community that loves and cares for us when our families have turned us away. We totally feel sorry that you all are missing the blessings of God.

The Grand Poo-Bah says -- This loving and caring community you talk about is using that as a cover for their real agenda -- to get their hands on your money. You have a need to be loved and cared for. The cult knows this and is using it to take advantage of you. You need to leave this cult and go back to your family. They did not turn you away but rather you allowed the false teaching of this church to come between them and you. They are right and you are wrong. You need to ask for forgiveness for being so guillible and needy and go back home.

Terese Wyatt says -- I hope your family is reading also. Everyone who has been in any kind of contact with any of these people should read your blog.

Karl Wilson says -- Wonderful blog. We wish you all the best as you continue the fight against these cults.

Jane Teston says -- It's about time that someone took on these faith churches. They are such a crock. My daughter and her family have been in one of the churches that you have mentioned. They get more distant from us every week. They have not been involved long so I am hoping that we can get her to read this blog when we visit her at Christmas. Thank you for openly discussing your issues.

The Grand Poo-Bah says -- Distance between family members is a huge flag that something is very wrong. Satan is at work in their lives. He is doing some of his "best work" right under our noses inside the church (especially the Pentecostal church.)

M. Gray says -- Well, don't you think you're clever. I am sorry that you think you have the right to criticize other churches. We believe that we are being taught the whole Word of God and not just what the traditional churches teach. You really should stop writing this garbage and get yourself right with God. Then He will bless you!

The Grand Poo-Bah says -- I have a serious problem with your assertion that traditional churches teach less than the whole Word of God. This attitude is elitist and a bald-faced lie from the pit of hell. Your acceptance of this statement is also appalling. You obviously have a very limited Christian background and you don't know a falsehood when you hear it.

Criticizing false teachers and their teachings is Scriptural. When someone tells you that they are the only church teaching the "whole Word of God" it marks them as a cult. To repeat myself, this is a lie direct from the lips of Satan and many people like yourself are being suckered in.

God has called me to write this blog and He is obviously blessing it and I am thankful for that. To my knowledge it has not helped my children yet but as long as it is helping someone I will continue to write it. Only God's Holy Spirit can bring about the desired result of getting people out of these cults.

The Apostolics say -- You are really testing our patience. Your comments are unfounded as we are growing healthier each day with the help of our Lord. Before He strikes you down, you should just stop this vile blog.

The Grand Poo-Bah says -- For your information, I am very well-read on the subject of these Faith Movement, Word of Faith, Victory Churches International cults. You need to read some of the books I have pictured in a previous blog. The Apostolic Movement does not have even one Bible-scholar anywhere in its ranks. If you knew your Bible, your Movement would not even exist.

Don't you think if I wasn't supposed to be writing this blog He would have struck me down by now! This blog is serious business. People's eternal destinies are at stake when it comes to these cults and their false teachings. Far too many Christians are totally unaware that Christianity is in crisis due to the existence of the Faith Movement, Word of Faith and Victory Churches International. The before mentioned groups are claiming to be Christian and have no right to do so based on their teachings. The Health and Wealth Gospel simply is not true and has no basis in Scripture.

O. Talbot says -- Having just found your blog, I find it utterly unbelievable that so many people can be taken in by something that is so wrong. No-one is supposed to expect to be wealthy and healthy as a right. If God chooses that for you, fine. But we cannot tell God what to do. I will be watching and reading your blog with some interest in the future.

The Grand Poo-Bah says -- Appreciate your comments. Look forward to hearing from you in the future.

T.S. Callerone says -- Isn't it interesting that we are just now seeing the seriousness of these cult leaders after many, many years of watching them come along and gradually gobble up innocent and gullible people. Having watched my church lose over half our members to the local "feel good" religious leader, I am appalled at how easy it was for him to lure these people in. Keep up the work, Brother...it is not in vain.

Annie Balder says -- I guess I was fortunate. I was invited to one of these churches and from the moment I went through the door, I knew there was something evil there. It's all very nice at first but there is a lot of darkness in the one I visited. When the chanting and gibberish started, well, I picked up my purse and left. There's nothing that could convince me to ever go back.

The Grand Poo-Bah says -- The same thing happened to me. I visited Barrie Victory Centre with my wife and her daughter (in the early days before brainwashing had taken hold) for a baby dedication. After about an hour of what you describe in your comments, we had to leave. On the way to the car, we were all shaking our heads, looked at each other and said, "There's something very evil going on in that place." There was this terrible awareness of evil and darkness. We all came to the conclusion that this was Satan's church. Satan is having his way with these people. What a sad situation. Good for you. Wise decision. We haven't been back either.

R. Ryler says -- We are in agreement with your assessment that the mainstream churches are not assisting those of us with family members or friends in these cult churches. It's as if they think at least they are going to church. But with a church like this, they'd be better off not going. We enjoy reading your blog and are glad that someone like you is able to take a stand and not knuckle under to keep the peace in your family.

The Grand Poo-Bah says -- Most churches have programs for this and for that. There is no shortage of groups for every need or interest. In these last days there needs to be a cult-awareness program in every church to protect future generations from this serious threat. There are plenty of materials on modern day cults available.

In a free society, cults will continue to grow. Guard your children and teach them well and pray hard. Satan is very busy in the church these days.

Manny Ramieras says -- Honestly, when will these people stop whining and figure out how to get their family members back on track. Or leave them alone there and move on. If they are adults, they can choose their own path.

The Grand Poo-Bah says -- Your seemingly total lack of concern for this issue is alarming. It's just this attitude that allows these cults to exist and run rampant over Christian churches. It's hard to imagine that if you had family members involved in a cult that you would have nothing to say. Maybe you are not a Christian and do not understand the ramifications of such an attitude. If you read some of these books, you would have a completely different understanding of the cult issues.

H. Harry says -- What awful problems these false teachers create. I am glad that I do not have any children that I have to raise in these end times.

Bonita Inks says -- We have several of these cultic churches in our town and have watched with great concern as they have grown at an alarming rate. They started small, in people's homes, and have now moved into other churches (renting) or store-front facilities. One of our friends has had her niece start attending and she has undergone a personality change that is frightening. Your blog has provided a lot of information that I can share with my friend.

The Grand Poo-Bah says -- Personality change is one of the marks of a cult. My three children have all undergone personality changes. They are not the children I used to know. Please pray for Jason, Darren and Glenn and their families.

N. Boisvert says -- I was amazed at some of the stories that people are willing to share about their personal lives. Guess they have to get things off their chests but surely they see how pathetic they look when they cannot control their own wives and children. What is wrong with these people?

The Grand Poo-Bah says -- What is wrong with these people is that they are needy and cults are in the business of "meeting needs." That's how they get their converts and also how they hold on to them.

D. Grey says -- I have lost my wife to these charlatans. Her pastor has gotten involved with a number of the wives and they are now moving to another state where they can "feel the Lord" without outside influences.

The Grand Poo-Bah says -- Charlatans" is a good word to describe Faith Movement, Word of Faith, Victory Churches International leaders.

"Feel the Lord" Key word here is "feel." A belief system that is rooted in feelings will eventually let you down. You will become disallusioned, walk away from the church and never return. I am very sorry to hear about your wife.

Words of Wisdom for the New Year:

Zig Ziglar says: "Truth is true even if nobody believes it and falsehood is false even if everybody believes it."

Sign Seen on a Billboard: If you find yourself going in the wrong direction, always remember, Christ accepts U turns.

New blogs will be posted in the New Year.

"Full Gospel" Rant

In Barrie, Ontario where I live there is a church on St. Vincent Street called the Full Gospel Lighthouse. I have occasion to drive by it numerous times because it is on the way to my doctor's office. Every time I see the name of that church, I want to get a can of black paint and cross out the words "Full Gospel" and change it to the word "One" because in my Bible there is only one Gospel and it is referred to as "The Gospel." I would never do this; but I really really want the name of this church changed. A good name would be The Gospel Lighthouse Community Church. I will probably be delivering a copy of this rant to the Full Gospel Lighthouse in the near future. The use of this term really upsets and angers me as a born-again Christian but I think that is what the term is intended to do, upset people who go to the lesser churches.

Where is the term "full gospel" in Scripture? Answer - nowhere. The term "full gospel" implies by its very nature that there is a partial/half/lesser gospel. This concept is totally foreign to the Word of God. The Pentecostal Church has made up this term to create the illusion for Christians that there is something more when there isn't. The Bible refers to "the" Gospel, meaning ONE. "Full Gospel" implies that there is more than ONE. The world must see Christians as a very confused bunch of people because they have "the Gospel" which is in Scripture and the "Full Gospel" which appears in the names of many Pentecostal churches.

Scripture does not teach that Christians are to seek after the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues and it certainly is not a command anywhere in Scripture which some churches teach. This term is very confusing and in serious error. Every time I drive by this church and see this name "Full Gospel Lighthouse" I think to myself that the people who attend there must be a bunch of Christian snobs who think that they are better than the rest of us.

What the Pentecostal Church has done by using the term "full gospel" in any context, they have created a class system within Christianity. There are the first-class Christians who go to the "full gospel" church, and there are the second-class Christians who go to all the other Christian churches. This is snobbery beyond belief and I often envision the adherents of this church walking around looking down their spiritual noses at the rest of us. Other phrases that come to mind are "We are the haves and the rest of you are the have-nots." We are the greater and you are the lesser Christians. We are the powerful and you are the powerless Christians. Some Christians are strong like the "full gospel" Christians and some are weak like the rest of us are made to feel by the use of this term. There are the big larger-than-life Christians who attend the "full gospel" church and there are the little minor insignificant measly Christians who attend all other churches. This term is a threat to my personal self-worth. It makes me feel like I am a lower-quality Christian and nothing could be further from the truth.

This snobbery has a very definite purpose within the Pentecostal Church. Its purpose is to create the illusion that there is something more, that they've got "it" and the rest of us haven't. I find this whole idea highly offensive and the use of this term needs to be stamped out immediately.

Christianity is what it is! Jesus is who He is! For 2000 years, He was the God-man who died for our sins. Now all of a sudden, in the twenty-first century, the Pentecostal Church is trying to tell us that He's somebody very different. Glossolalia/tongues-speakers are now saying that not only is He the One who paid the price for our sins but now He's also the One who provides health and wealth. This is like saying to Jesus, hanging on the cross with nails in His hands and His feet; "What do you mean all we get is forgiveness for sins? We want more! We want health and wealth!" I can just see all the Penetcostals looking up all the Scriptures in the Bible that refer to health and wealth and deciding that all they have to do is quote these Scriptures often and we will be able to make health and wealth part of the reason that Jesus died on the cross (the Atonement).

What do you think God's attitude is towards this kind of thinking? The Bible teaches that nothing is to be added or taken away from "the Gospel" that was delivered to the Saints. There's something new in Penetcostal churches all the time. The history of their church shows that they never ever get to the truth. What was new truth becomes old truth and is quickly discarded to be replaced by the next new truth. This says to me that the "new truths" must be falsehoods if they can be so easily discarded and set aside. Falsehood makes the Pentecostal church a cult and they are full of it.

There is nothing new in Christianity unless you're a Pentecostal or a tongues-speaker. Tongues or glossolalia creates the illusion that there is something more because they are not used in most churches. The reason they are not used in most churches is because it is not Scriptural. Scripture teaches that tongues will cease. If you fall for the ruse of glossolalia, you will most certainly be convinced there is something more when there isn't. Ministers also claim that God speaks to them when the truth is the total revelation of God is contained within the Scriptures. Another way that the illusion of something more is created.

Scores of phony, unverifiable healings also contribute to the illusion there is something more when there really isn't. "Full Gospel" is a very offensive term and is totally confusing for the Christian population in general. What must the world think? Things that come to mind are; What is the matter with Christians? Don't they know what they believe? There seems to be two Christianities. Which one is right? How do I decide which church to go to? And I would hazard a guess that a lot of people thinking this way end up going nowhere rather than make the wrong choice because they both can't be right.

Any church using the term "full gospel" in their name needs to change that name to something else immediately to end the total confusion it's creating in Christendom.

Experience over doctrinal truth - about me

Miracles, signs and wonders - about me

Emotional high / feeling good - about me

Doctrine of subsequence - about me

Health and wealth - about me

Visions - about me

Healings - about me

Speaking in tongues - about me

Annointing - about me

New revelation - about me

Blessings - about me

Spiritual gifts - about me

Mysticism - about me

Glossolalia - about me

Hi, my name is "PENTE." I like it when the world revolves around ME! That's why I left the Baptist Church because not enough was about ME!

More Thoughts

Being totally self-centered you feel very comfortable at the Pente/tongues cult but what does Scripture say? Did God set up the church for our benefit? No! He set up the church to spread the good news about Him. The church was set up for His benefit; not for ours.

It's about Him, His death, burial and resurrection. The only thing about "us" is that we get our slate wiped clean, our sins forgiven. (It is finished.) Any and all tongues-speaking cults feel they must offer "more" to attract constituents. They do it because it works. Large numbers of people fall for it every year.

The tongues-speaking cults exist solely for the benefit and self-worship of its adherents. You need to remember here that just because so many people are being drawn to it doesn't justify it or make it right. Satan has been extra busy since the Faith Movement arrived on the scene in the early 80s. This movement has given Satan a perfect tool to work with to throw Christians off the road and into the ditch. He has had great success with it and will likely continue as long as Christians give him an open door.

We live in a very self-centered world where everything is about "me." The "me" cults play constantly to this weakness in our society. This current generation has often been called the "me" generation and it applies to the church as well. Christ would be appalled at what's going on in the tongues-speaking cults. How will they explain themselves when they stand before God someday to give account for why they totally misread and misunderstood Scripture and worst of all, shared this misunderstanding with millions of people around the world.

Is The Gift of Tongues For Today?

Someone sent me a sample of some charismatic Sunday school literature designed to teach kindergarten children to speak in tongues. It is titled "I've Been Filled with the Holy Spirit!!!" and is an eight-page colouring book. One page has a caricature of a smiling weight-lifter with a T-shirt that says "Spirit-Man." Under him is printed 1 Corinthians 14:4: "He that speaks in an unknown tongue builds himself up."

Another page features a boy who looks like Howdy-Doody [a clown] with his hands lifted up. A dotted outline pictures where his lungs would be. (This evidently represents his spirit.) Inside the lung-shaped diagram is printed "BAH-LE ODOMA TA LAH-SE TA NO-MO." A cartoon-style balloon coming from his mouth repeats the words, "BAH-LE ODOMA TA LAH-SE TA NO-MO." A brain-shaped cloud is drawn in his head, with a large question mark in the cloud? Also inside the cloud is printed, "MY MIND DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING." Under the boy 1 Corinthians 14:14 is printed: "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful."

That expresses the typical charismatic perspective. The gift of tongues is viewed as a wholly mystical ability that somehow operates in a person's spirit but utterly bypasses the mind. Many charismatics are even told that they must purposefully switch off their minds to enable the gift to function. Charles and Frances Hunter, for example, hold "Healing Explosion" meetings, attended by as many as fifty thousand people at a time. At those seminars the Hunters "teach" people how to receive the gift of tongues. Charles Hunter tells people,

When you pray with your spirit, you do not think of the sounds of the language. Just trust God, but make the sounds when I tell you to. In just a moment when I tell you to, begin loving and praising God by speaking forth a lot of different syllable sounds. At first make the sounds rapidly so you won't try to think as you do in speaking your natural language...Make the sounds loudly at first so you can easily hear what you are saying.

Hunter does not explain what point there is in hearing what one is saying, since the mind is supposed to be disengaged anyway. He continually reminds his audience that they are not supposed to be thinking: "The reason that some of you don't speak fluently is that you tried to think of the sounds. So when we pray this prayer and you start speaking in your heavenly language, don't try to think." Later, he adds, "[You] don't even have to think to pray in the Spirit."

[The Grand Poo-Bah says: "The words 'heavenly language' appear nowhere in Scripture and cannot be found anywhere in a Bible concordance. How can that be explained? My guess is the Pentecostal church made it up to serve their purposes. There is no such thing as a heavenly language -- it does not exist except in the minds of Pentecostals."]

Arthur L. Johnson, in his excellent expose of mysticism calls the charismatic movement "the zenith of mysticism" and with good reason. This desire to switch off the mind and disconnect from all that is rational was one of the primary characteristics of the pagan mystery religions. Nearly all the teachings distinctive to the charismatic movement are unadulterated mysticism and nothing illustrates that more perfectly than the way charismatics themselves depict the gift of tongues.

Charismatics [and that includes Victory Churches International] typically describe tongues as an ecstatic experience without parallel that arouses the spirit in a way that must be experienced to be appreciated. One author quotes Robert V. Morris:

For me...the gift of tongues turned out to be the gift of praise. As I used the unknown language which God had given me I felt rising in me the love, the awe, the adoration, pure and uncontingent, that I had not been able to achieve in thought-out prayer.

A newspaper article on tongues quoted the Reverend Bill L. Williams, of San Jose: "It involves you with someone you're deeply in love with and devoted to...We don't understand the verbiage but we know we're in communication." That awareness is "beyond emotion, beyond intellect," he said. "It transcends human understanding. It is the heart of man speaking to the heart of God. It is deep, inner heart understanding." "It comes as supernatural utterances, bringing intimacy with God."

The article also quoted the Reverend Billy Martin, of Farmington, New Mexico: "It's a joyous, glorious, wonderful experience." And the Reverend Darlene Miller, of Knoxville, Tennessee: "It's like the sweetness of peaches that you can't know until you taste it yourself. There's nothing ever to compare with that taste." Other tongues-speakers would echo sentiments similar to those.

And what could possibly be wrong with such an experience? If it makes a person feel good, closer to God, spiritually stronger, or even delirious with joy, can it in any way be dangerous or deceptive?

It can, and it is. The late George Gardiner, a pastor and former tongues-speaker, who left the Pentecostal movement, poignantly described the danger of surrendering one's mind and abandoning control of oneself for the euphoria of a tongues experience:

The enemy of the soul is ever-ready to take advantage of an "out of control" situation and thousands of Christians can testify with regret to the end results. Such experiences not only give Satan an opening he is quick to exploit, they can be psychologically damaging to the individual. Charismatic writers are constantly warning tongues-speakers that they will suffer a letdown. This is ascribed to the devil and the reader is urged to get refilled as soon as possible...

So the seeker for experience goes back through the ritual again and again, but begins to discover something; ecstatic experience, like drug-addiction, requires larger and larger doses to satisfy. Sometimes the bizarre is introduced. I have seen people run around a room until they were exhausted, climb tent poles, laugh hysterically, go into trances for days, and do other weird things as the "high" sought became more illusive. Eventually there is a crisis and a decision is made; he will sit on the back seats and be a spectator and "fake it" or go on in the hope that everything will eventually be as it was. The most tragic decision is to quit and in the quitting, abandon all things spiritual as fraudulent. The spectators are frustrated, the fakers suffer guilt, the hoping are pitiable, and the quitters are a tragedy. No, such movements are not harmless!

Many who speak in tongues will understand the tensions Gardiner has described. He is not the only tongues-speaker to turn against the practice and expose its dangers. Wayne Robinson, who served as editor-in-chief of publications in the Oral Roberts Evangelistic Association, was an enthusiastic tongues-speaker. In the preface of his book I Once Spoke In Tongues, he wrote:

In the past few years, I have become more and more convinced that the test, not only of tongues but of any religious experience, cannot be limited to the logic and truthfulness supporting it. There is also the essential question, "what does it do in one's life?" More specifically, does it turn a person inward to self-concern and selfish interests, or does it open him up to others and to their needs?

I know people who testify that speaking in tongues has been the great liberating experience of their lives. But juxtaposed with them are a great many others for whom speaking in tongues has been an excuse to withdraw from confronting the realities of a suffering and divided world. For some, tongues has been the greatest thing ever to happen; others have seen it disrupt churches, destroy careers, and rupture personal relationships. [The Grand Poo-Bah has personally experienced the latter.]

Ben Byrd, another former charismatic, writes,
To say that speaking in tongues is a harmless practice and is all right for those who want to IS AN UNWISE position when information to the contrary is evident...Speaking in tongues is addictive. The misunderstanding of the issue of tongues and the habit plus the psychic high it brings plus the stimulation of the flesh equals a practice hard to let go of...But to equate much speaking in tongues with advanced spirituality is to reveal one's misunderstanding of Bible Truth and to reveal one's willingness to be satisfied with a deceptive and dangerous counterfeit.

Others who practice tongues can turn the phenomenon on and off mechanically, without feeling anything emotional, having learned the familiar sounds to repeat, they have honed the ability and can speak fluently and effortlessly -- yet dispassionately.

(from "Charismatic Chaos by John F. MacArthur, Jr.)

[The Grand Poo-Bah says: "To sum it up in a nutshell, speaking in tongues is learned behaviour; it is addictive, very dangerous and serves the purposes of Satan. Just so you know, the Grand Poo-Bah has not experienced speaking in tongues because he seems to know through discernment that it's dangerous and gives the devil an opportunity and I choose not to give the devil an open door. It has been my experience in over sixty years that you don't have to go to the sun to know it's hot."]

Defective Christology (Mark #7)

Who is Jesus Christ?

This is the most important question that any person will ever face. The deepest joys we will ever know in this life and our very hope of eternal life depend on the proper answer to that question. Because this is true, we may be sure that the primary activity of Satan will be to obscure as much as possible the true nature of the person of our blessed Saviour, the Lord Jesus.

In all of the history of the Church, the most grievous heresies have been those which have advocated a view of the person of Christ other than that which is taught in the Word of God. Satan knows that an improper understanding of the person and the work of Christ makes salvation impossible.

The attack on the understanding of the nature of Christ began in the early days of the Church. The intellectually disposed Colossians began to be infected by a heretical view called Gnosticism. This doctrinal error taught that a human approached the Godhead through progressive steps of higher and higher angelic beings who bridged the gap between man and God. It taught that Christ was one of these angelic beings who was more than man but less than God. It advocated the worship of these angelic beings and included worshipping Christ as merely a part of the duty of a Christian.

The Apostle Paul, knowing the peril the Colossians were in of turning to a religion other than the faith of Jesus Christ, wrote them a most earnest epistle. He warned. "Beware, lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:8-9; 2:18-19).

These people prided themselves in possessing knowledge. Paul told them that knowledge was not enough; they must have "full knowledge" (epignosis). He insisted that this full knowledge was the knowledge of the person of Jesus Christ Himself. The Scripture therefore insists that in worshipping Jesus Christ, we are worshipping God Himself. "He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father" (John 5:23).

Later in the history of the Church there grew up another sub-Christian point of view called Arianism. This was one of the first heresies of the Church, and it was declared so because it denied the true deity of our Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.

The advocacy of Arianism by the satanic opponents of Christianity produced great doctrinal clarity in the ranks of the early Christians. These confrontations lead them to the greatly reinforced conviction that one's attitude towards the nature of Jesus Christ is primary to his Christianity. A false view of the Saviour produced a false religion which presented no salvation at all. This conviction lead the Early Church fathers to earnestly contend for the faith. They knew what was at stake. The issue was the survival of Christianity itself.

The central truth of Christianity is therefore related to the question, "What think ye of Christ?" The Christian is commanded to test the spirits of these suspicious alternative messengers. The doctrinal test of those spirits is very clear. (Read 1 John 4:1-3). It is clear then that the test of a true representative of the Gospel has to do with his definition of the person and the work of Jesus Christ. The central doctrine of Christianity is Christology, the doctrine of the nature of the person of Jesus Christ.

Christianity affirms the true deity and true humanity of our blessed Saviour, which deity and humanity is conjoined together in one personality on the basis of the hypostatic union. By this we understand that Jesus Christ was not partly man and partly God on the basis of some percentage or formula. He is true humanity. He is true deity in human form. The characteristic of biblical faith is that it has a proper understanding of the nature of the person of Christ.

There are those today who claim to be Christians who deny the true deity of Christ. Religious liberalism can be judged as heretical on the basis of its denial of the sure deity of the blessed Son of God. Liberalism is not Christianity, it is a heretical, anti-Christian view, being defective in its view of the deity of Christ.

There are religions that deny the true humanity of the Saviour. Christian Science, as an instance, denies the existence of the physical, claiming the essential substance of the universe is mind. If the physical does not exist, then deity did not become true humanity in the person of Christ. This is the doctrine of antichrist, according to Scripture.

The thoughtful Christian will carefully analyze the doctrine of a cult that is being pressed upon him paying special attention to the Christology of that alternative religious message. The message that in effect declares Christ to be the automaton of the Father and not a real person in Himself, is a cult. The message that denies the virgin birth of Christ, holding Him to be merely the natural son of Joseph and Mary, is a cult. An examination of the doctrinal base of any religion in the light of its views on the person and the work of Jesus Christ can be most revealing.

The question, "What think ye of Jesus?" is only answered correctly by the believing Christian. The Christian gladly answers, "Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the living God, God incarnate in the form of human flesh. He is the Son of man, the only Saviour of the world, the Author and Finisher of our faith, who, through His death on the cross, provides redemption for all who believe in Him. He is the One who died for our sins, rose again on the third day who lives to make intercession for us before His Father and who one day will come in His glorious returning to judge the quick and the dead at His appearing in His kingdom. He is Lord and God, and in Him alone we have life, and life more abundantly."

Closely related to the fatal heresy of defective Christology is a denial of the trinity of the Godhead. The only true God is one God, eternally existent in three persons, Father, Son. and Holy Spirit. Each person of the Godhead is co-equal and co-eternal with the others. This view is not held by the Jehovah Witnesses. Many cults are blind as to the nature of God and in their theology deny the deity of Jesus Christ or the deity of the Holy Spirit. An improper faith in the only true God makes impossible any real hope of salvation.

These critical doctrinal problems concerning the nature of the Godhead should come to each Christian as a new reminder of the need for Christian scholarship. For too long we have been influenced by foolish leaders who say, "We don't need doctrine; we just need experience!"

In the same vein is the mindless claim, "We don't preach doctrine, we just preach Christ!" Preachers who talk like this need to move up from their spiritual kindergartens and realize the shameful neglect of their own personal scholarship and the consequent neglect of doctrinal preaching to their people. The cults will have a field day in exploiting experience-orientated saints who have no time for the study of Christian doctrine.

(from Know the Marks of Cults - the 12 Basic Errors of False Religion by Dave Breese)

Scriptures Correct the Faith Teachings!

Virtually every book in the Bible tells Christians that they are going to suffer in this life -- from persecution, various trials, and also from God's own will. Nevertheless, the Apostle Peter says that we are to "rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ" (1 Peter 4:13). He even connects suffering to the will of God: "So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good" (1 Peter 4:19). The Apostle Paul refers to "the Kingdom of God for which you are suffering" and tells us we can expect problems and troubles until Christ returns (2 Thessalonians 1:5-7).

Peter further tells us that we are not alone in our sufferings, for Christians "throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings" (1 Peter 5:9), and Paul, far from calling poverty "an evil spirit" to be removed by word-faith power, naturally assumes its existence (1 Timothy 5:16). And perhaps even more important, nowhere does he naturally assume the existence of prosperity, wealth, and success for Christians with the "faith."

Nevertheless Robert Tilton and others say that believers who properly exercise faith and confession never need have problems or troubles in life again. But didn't Jesus say in John 16:33, "In this world you will have trouble"?

Kenneth Hagin says that he never confesses his doubts: "I never talk sickness...I never talk disease...I never talk failure...I never talk about what the devil has done. I'm not interested in his works." Further, he even confesses that he would not tell the truth in order to maintain a positive attitude: "But if I had a headache, I wouldn't tell anybody. And if somebody asked me how I was feeling, I would say, 'I'm fine, thank you.' I would speak the right WORDS, because Jesus said in Mark 11:23, 'He shall have whatsoever he saith.'" And , "I wouldn't tell anybody if I had a doubt-thought, or a fear-thought. I wouldn't accept it. I wouldn't tell somebody if the thought came to me..." But doesn't the Bible tell us that we are to "speak the truth in love" to one another (Ephesians 4:15)?

And isn't the Bible full of "negative confessions" by Jesus, the apostles, and all the prophets? Didn't Jesus say that "each day has enough trouble of its own" (Matthew 6:34)?

The Faith teachers say "Never confess fear." But the Apostle Paul himself confessed, "For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be...I fear there may be quarrelling, jealousy, outbursts of anger...arrogance and disorder. I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented..." (2 Corinthians 12:20-21).

The Faith teachers claim that we should: "never confess trouble" or Satan's ability to hinder us. But the Apostle Paul says that he wished to visit the Thessalonians, "yet Satan thwarted us" (1 Thessalonians 3:5-7).

Throughout the New Testament we find statements such as the following: "Death is at work in us"; "Outwardly we are wasting away"; "We were under great pressure far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired even of life. Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death" (see 2 Corinthians 1:8-9; 2:4; 4:8-12, 16; 5:4).

The truth is that the Bible is full of what the Faith Movement would call "negative confessions" and yet they are the words of godly apostles and prophets -- men of great faith. If the faith teachings are true, how can this be so?

(From The Facts on the Faith Movement by John Ankerberg & John Weldon)