Saturday, February 26, 2011
Monday, February 21, 2011
Questions To Ask Charismatics That Prove Tongues To Be Unbiblical
Q1. Did you speak in tongues because someone asked you to, or did tongues come to you without you seeking it, and without anyone suggesting you do it, as in the New Testament?
Q2. When you were asked to speak in tongues, did you say "No, wait until I have thoroughly and completely studied and understood every verse on the subject?"
Q3. Do you use your tongue as a warning to Jews to repent?
Q4. Do you always have your tongue correctly interpreted?
"Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret". 1 Corinthians 14:13
Q5. Do you speak in tongues to edify yourself or to edify the church?
"Seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church" 1 Corinthians 14:12
Q6. Do women speak in tongues aloud in your church?
"Let your women keep silent in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak ... for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34,35.
Q7. Do two or at the most three speak in "tongues" at your meetings? 1 Corinthians 14:27.
Q8. Do your "tongues" speakers speak in turn after being interpreted, or do they all speak at the same time?
Q9. Which spirit gave you your tongue?
If you think it is the Holy Spirit, can you prove it? How?
Q10. Did you receive your tongue when someone told you to relax, be passive, blank out your mind, and let anything come out? or
Q11. Were you strongly refusing anything which Satan might send you? Did you constantly pray for God to keep you from everything not of Him when people challenged you to speak in tongues?
Q12. Does your tongue ever get out of control, or does it take over your prayer time?
Q13. What do you learn more about God through your tongue?
Q14. Do people in your church suppress their tongues if there is no genuine interpreter present?
"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church..." 1 Corinthians 14:28.
Q15. Can you find one Biblical example of a woman speaking in tongues? (Keith Piper)
Q2. When you were asked to speak in tongues, did you say "No, wait until I have thoroughly and completely studied and understood every verse on the subject?"
Q3. Do you use your tongue as a warning to Jews to repent?
Q4. Do you always have your tongue correctly interpreted?
"Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret". 1 Corinthians 14:13
Q5. Do you speak in tongues to edify yourself or to edify the church?
"Seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church" 1 Corinthians 14:12
Q6. Do women speak in tongues aloud in your church?
"Let your women keep silent in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak ... for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34,35.
Q7. Do two or at the most three speak in "tongues" at your meetings? 1 Corinthians 14:27.
Q8. Do your "tongues" speakers speak in turn after being interpreted, or do they all speak at the same time?
Q9. Which spirit gave you your tongue?
If you think it is the Holy Spirit, can you prove it? How?
Q10. Did you receive your tongue when someone told you to relax, be passive, blank out your mind, and let anything come out? or
Q11. Were you strongly refusing anything which Satan might send you? Did you constantly pray for God to keep you from everything not of Him when people challenged you to speak in tongues?
Q12. Does your tongue ever get out of control, or does it take over your prayer time?
Q13. What do you learn more about God through your tongue?
Q14. Do people in your church suppress their tongues if there is no genuine interpreter present?
"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church..." 1 Corinthians 14:28.
Q15. Can you find one Biblical example of a woman speaking in tongues? (Keith Piper)
Tuesday, February 15, 2011
"Only The Apostles" - 8 More Reasons
Reason #12: Ephesians 4, 5, 6 describe thoroughly the Walk and Service of a Spirit-filled believer.
Nowhere in this key passage is speaking in tongues mentioned.
Conclusion: "Walking worthy" does not include tongues.
Reason #13 - Phonetics Test Every language must have hundreds of different syllables to express the wide range of ideas in a society. Charismatic tongues only have less than 12 syllables repeated, constantly. This is typical of gibberish that comes from a mind that is not expressing thoughts, but from a tongue out of control from the mind.
Note. 4 syllables are, for example, seen in "Cha/ris/ma/tic". This shows that tongues are not real languages, but are just sounds made up on the spot at random.
Reason #14 - Order of importance is reversed. Majoring on tongues REVERSES the order of importance of spiritual gifts. In 1 Corinthians 12:28, God lists tongues as the least important of eight gifts.
In 1 Corinthians 12:31, God tells the church to seek the "best" gifts.
God gives gifts to believers "as HE will" (12:11), not as we insist.
Charismatics tell people to pray long and hard for the gift of tongues.
We are not to deliberately choose and insist on having the least gift and exalt it above the others. Why not place greater emphasis on the gifts of pastor-teacher, evangelists, helps, government, giving, etc.? It is because these gifts involve hard work, but tongues is easy.
Reason #15 - Rebuking Errors - The context of 1 Corinthians is rebuking 13 errors, such as tongues, and it is not recommending tongues. The Corinthian church was filled with problems that Paul corrects in this book, such as:
Reason #16 - They fail the "Easy to be entreated" test.
It is amazing how tongue-speakers often become very angry, intolerant, irritable, impatient, nervous, very dogmatic, and extremely touchy when anything is said which disapproves of or corrects their idea of speaking in tongues.
"The wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, easy to be entreated"...James 3:17
"The works of the flesh...are wrath, strife..." Galations 5:19, 20.
"Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God." Hebrews 12:15.
Reason #17 - The First Mentioned Principle of Tongues is in the Context of Judgment.
This is a well-established principle for correctly interpreting Scripture.
It states that:
When any subject, word, expression or idea is first mentioned in the Bible, this shows how God thinks on that subject, and is a guide to how we should understand this subject in the rest of the Bible. For example:
Reason #18 - PRAYING IN TONGUES is WRONG because UNDERSTANDING is ABSENT.
"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the UNDERSTANDING ALSO" 1 Corinthians 14:14,15.
Paul is saying here that if you pray in tongues, your spirit might be trying to express something, but your MIND (or understanding) has no idea what is being said. This is wrong, Paul says. For prayer to be genuine, we must pray with our spirit and with our understanding.
Praying in tongues fails the test of understanding. The mind and voice are disconnected. Many Charismatics will try to justify praying in tongues by quoting Romans 8:26.
"...the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which CANNOT BE UTTERED".
This verse is not talking about praying in tongues because tongues are uttered vocal sounds. The Holy Spirit speaks our thoughts to the Father with groanings which cannot be uttered by us, yet prayer tongues are uttered by people.
Reason #19 - The Process of Elimination shows tongues to be not for believers of today.
Tongues primary purpose was to warn unbelieving Jews to repent, or God would judge them.
They refused to repent, so God judged them in 70 AD, thus making tongues as a warning to the Jews no longer necessary.
"Tongues are a sign, NOT TO THEM THAT BELIEVE, but to them that BELIEVE NOT..." 1 Corinthans 14:22.
Tongues are a sign for one of three types of people. Which one?
a) NOT FOR BELIEVERS. 14:22. This means that tongues have no purpose for believers. For Christians to speak in tongues is not valid.
b) NOT FOR GENTILE UNBELIEVERS. 14:23. Those unlearned to the Old Testament meaning of tongues, or unbelievers, "will they not say that ye are mad?" This describes unsaved Gentiles.
Tongues are not for this group because the history of Assyrian and Babylonian tongues as a warning of a judgment to Israel meant nothing to them.
c) JEWISH UNBELIEVERS, 14:21. "In the law (Isaiah 28:11, Jeremiah 5:15 and Deuteronomy 28:49) it is written, with men of other tongues (Assyrian, Babylonian, Roman) and other lips will I speak unto this people (Jews); and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord".
Nowhere in this key passage is speaking in tongues mentioned.
Conclusion: "Walking worthy" does not include tongues.
Reason #13 - Phonetics Test Every language must have hundreds of different syllables to express the wide range of ideas in a society. Charismatic tongues only have less than 12 syllables repeated, constantly. This is typical of gibberish that comes from a mind that is not expressing thoughts, but from a tongue out of control from the mind.
Note. 4 syllables are, for example, seen in "Cha/ris/ma/tic". This shows that tongues are not real languages, but are just sounds made up on the spot at random.
Reason #14 - Order of importance is reversed. Majoring on tongues REVERSES the order of importance of spiritual gifts. In 1 Corinthians 12:28, God lists tongues as the least important of eight gifts.
In 1 Corinthians 12:31, God tells the church to seek the "best" gifts.
God gives gifts to believers "as HE will" (12:11), not as we insist.
Charismatics tell people to pray long and hard for the gift of tongues.
We are not to deliberately choose and insist on having the least gift and exalt it above the others. Why not place greater emphasis on the gifts of pastor-teacher, evangelists, helps, government, giving, etc.? It is because these gifts involve hard work, but tongues is easy.
Reason #15 - Rebuking Errors - The context of 1 Corinthians is rebuking 13 errors, such as tongues, and it is not recommending tongues. The Corinthian church was filled with problems that Paul corrects in this book, such as:
- They were following their favourite human leaders causing divisions. 1:11-14
- " " favouring human wisdom. 1:18-2:13
- " " carnal, living for self, not controlled by the Spirit. 2:14-3:7
- " " forgetting the future Judgment Seat of Christ. 3:8-23
- " " proud, thinking of themselves more highly than they ought. 4:1-21
- " " failing to discipline, by tolerating a fornicator. 5:1-13
- " " taking fellow believers to court. 6:1-20
- " " confused about marriage. 7:1-40
- " " confused about liberty thinking it meant license to do as they please, even stumbling others. 8,9.10
- " " confused about clothing, long hair on men and Lord's Supper. 11
- " " confused about spiritual gifts, especially tongues. 12-14
- " " confused about the resurrection. 15
- " " confused about the collection. 16
Reason #16 - They fail the "Easy to be entreated" test.
It is amazing how tongue-speakers often become very angry, intolerant, irritable, impatient, nervous, very dogmatic, and extremely touchy when anything is said which disapproves of or corrects their idea of speaking in tongues.
"The wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, easy to be entreated"...James 3:17
"The works of the flesh...are wrath, strife..." Galations 5:19, 20.
"Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God." Hebrews 12:15.
Reason #17 - The First Mentioned Principle of Tongues is in the Context of Judgment.
This is a well-established principle for correctly interpreting Scripture.
It states that:
When any subject, word, expression or idea is first mentioned in the Bible, this shows how God thinks on that subject, and is a guide to how we should understand this subject in the rest of the Bible. For example:
- The first mention of Babylon, Babel, and languages is in Genesis 11:1-9 where God confused man's languages so that they did not understand one another's speech. "The Lord scattered mankind abroad upon the face of all the earth." Man has remained divided by different languages ever since. Hence tongues are associated with division and confusion (the meaning of Babel), ever since the Tower of Babel; not with the blessing of God, but with the judgment of God.
Reason #18 - PRAYING IN TONGUES is WRONG because UNDERSTANDING is ABSENT.
"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the UNDERSTANDING ALSO" 1 Corinthians 14:14,15.
Paul is saying here that if you pray in tongues, your spirit might be trying to express something, but your MIND (or understanding) has no idea what is being said. This is wrong, Paul says. For prayer to be genuine, we must pray with our spirit and with our understanding.
Praying in tongues fails the test of understanding. The mind and voice are disconnected. Many Charismatics will try to justify praying in tongues by quoting Romans 8:26.
"...the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which CANNOT BE UTTERED".
This verse is not talking about praying in tongues because tongues are uttered vocal sounds. The Holy Spirit speaks our thoughts to the Father with groanings which cannot be uttered by us, yet prayer tongues are uttered by people.
Reason #19 - The Process of Elimination shows tongues to be not for believers of today.
Tongues primary purpose was to warn unbelieving Jews to repent, or God would judge them.
They refused to repent, so God judged them in 70 AD, thus making tongues as a warning to the Jews no longer necessary.
"Tongues are a sign, NOT TO THEM THAT BELIEVE, but to them that BELIEVE NOT..." 1 Corinthans 14:22.
Tongues are a sign for one of three types of people. Which one?
a) NOT FOR BELIEVERS. 14:22. This means that tongues have no purpose for believers. For Christians to speak in tongues is not valid.
b) NOT FOR GENTILE UNBELIEVERS. 14:23. Those unlearned to the Old Testament meaning of tongues, or unbelievers, "will they not say that ye are mad?" This describes unsaved Gentiles.
Tongues are not for this group because the history of Assyrian and Babylonian tongues as a warning of a judgment to Israel meant nothing to them.
c) JEWISH UNBELIEVERS, 14:21. "In the law (Isaiah 28:11, Jeremiah 5:15 and Deuteronomy 28:49) it is written, with men of other tongues (Assyrian, Babylonian, Roman) and other lips will I speak unto this people (Jews); and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord".
Friday, February 11, 2011
Reason 11: Tape Recorder Test Disproves Interpretation of Tongues
If no one passes the Interpretation test, then neither does anyone possess the genuine gift of tongues.
This scientific test will disprove anyone's claim to have the gift of "Interpretation of tongues".
Assemble, one person who claims to have the gift of tongues, and another two people who claim to have the gift of interpreting tongues, keeping both groups separate.
Let the first person speak in tongues, while you tape record him speaking.
Then bring the first interpreter into the room to hear the taped tongue replayed.
Tape record his interpretation of the tongue.
Then bring the second interpreter into the room to hear the same tongue replayed.
Tape record his interpretation of the same tongue. You will find that the second interpretation will disagree with the first person's interpretation.
Why is this? It is because no one today has the first century supernatural gift of interpretation of tongues, this gift having passed away by 70 AD.
It follows therefore, that if the interpretation gift is found to be NON-GENUINE, then the tongues gift is also NON-GENUINE.
Notice please that when someone speaks gibberish, claiming that he is speaking in an unknown tongue, he is, by deception, taking advantage of the fact that the hearer does not know every language in the Universe. The hearer, who is caught off guard, finds it hard to state that this gibberish is not a language.
So let us turn the tables and ask if his two interpreter friends can interpret any tongue consistently.
Note: A variation on this test is to get up in a Charismatic meeting, speak something in a foreign language that you know the meaning of, and then ask for it to be correctly interpreted, e.g. quote the Lords prayer in Latvian. You will find that the interpretation given, will be nothing like the true meaning of what you said. You may then expose them publicly as deceivers and as being deceived.
This scientific test will disprove anyone's claim to have the gift of "Interpretation of tongues".
Assemble, one person who claims to have the gift of tongues, and another two people who claim to have the gift of interpreting tongues, keeping both groups separate.
Let the first person speak in tongues, while you tape record him speaking.
Then bring the first interpreter into the room to hear the taped tongue replayed.
Tape record his interpretation of the tongue.
Then bring the second interpreter into the room to hear the same tongue replayed.
Tape record his interpretation of the same tongue. You will find that the second interpretation will disagree with the first person's interpretation.
Why is this? It is because no one today has the first century supernatural gift of interpretation of tongues, this gift having passed away by 70 AD.
It follows therefore, that if the interpretation gift is found to be NON-GENUINE, then the tongues gift is also NON-GENUINE.
Notice please that when someone speaks gibberish, claiming that he is speaking in an unknown tongue, he is, by deception, taking advantage of the fact that the hearer does not know every language in the Universe. The hearer, who is caught off guard, finds it hard to state that this gibberish is not a language.
So let us turn the tables and ask if his two interpreter friends can interpret any tongue consistently.
Note: A variation on this test is to get up in a Charismatic meeting, speak something in a foreign language that you know the meaning of, and then ask for it to be correctly interpreted, e.g. quote the Lords prayer in Latvian. You will find that the interpretation given, will be nothing like the true meaning of what you said. You may then expose them publicly as deceivers and as being deceived.
Wednesday, February 9, 2011
"THEM THAT BELIEVE" refers to ONLY the APOSTLES.
Reason 1: Context is the Apostles' Unbelief in Christ's resurrection.
In Mark 16:14, Jesus rebukes the apostles for their unbelief in His resurrection.
In v. 11-14, four times the apostles' unbelief is mentioned as Jesus addressed the apostles:
v.11 "They (apostles), when they had heard that he was alive ......believed not".
v.13 "...neither believed they them".
v.14 "He...upbraided them (apostles) with their unbelief and hardness of heart".
v.14 "...because they (apostles) believed not them which had seen him after he was risen".
After this rebuke Jesus gives the apostles the Great Commission in v.15,16. Once the commission is given, Jesus returns to his immediate audience of the eleven apostles when He says in v.17,18 "These signs shall follow them that believe" (ie. those of you eleven apostles who believe in my resurrection).
In my name:
1. they shall cast out devils.
2. they shall speak with new tongues.
3. they shall take up serpents.
4. if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them.
5. they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.
Reason 2: Practical Experience shows that promises 3, 4, 5, are not true for every believer today. In spite of continued failure to heal Charismatics still think that these 5 promises are for every believer today.
The obvious problem with this interpretation is that it does not deal with everything mentioned in the text.
a) No Charismatic can always fulfill the 5th promise. It says that they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. This means 100% recovery all the time. No one can do this today, as the apostles could in Acts 5:12-16.
"By the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people...they (believers) brought forth the sick into the streets... and they were healed every one". v. 16.
John Wimber, a famous Charismatic, laid hands on 250 Down's Syndrome children and none were healed.
Reinhard Boncke tried to heal over 200 Kenyans and none were healed at a meeting at Kisumu.
b) "If they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them".
"If" means accidentally. The problem is that many good Christians have become sick or died by poisoning. Have you as a believer ever vomited?
c) "They shall take up serpents".
We ask a Charismatic to take up a deadly snake. He replies by saying: "No, that would be tempting God." Yet in the first century this was a sign that the apostles did (shall do) to prove the Word of God and their authority. Some believers today have died in trying this. Hence showing that this is not for today.
Reason 3: AORIST tense of "believe" in Mark 16:17 refers to those who did believe in the past, not who will believe in the future.
"These signs shall follow them that believe." The Greek word for believe here "pisteusasin" which is in aorist participle referring to those who did believe in the past".
[S. Zodhiates, "Complete New Testament Word Study Dictionary" p. 1107]
"not those who would believe in the future".
[S. Zodhiates, "Hebrew-Greek Key Word Study Bible" p.1223]
The aorist tense refers to a past action at a point in time, not an event that recurs again into the future, as it would be if it was true of all believers.
Reason 4: Belief (pisteusasin in Mark 16:17) does not refer to saving belief. In John 3:16 and 5:24 saving belief is "pisteuwn", a different word ending. Hence, "belief" in Mark 16:17 refers not to all future believers, but to the apostles believing in Christ's resurrection at a point in time, once for all time.
Reason 5: "Do all speak with tongues?" 1 Corinthians 12:30, requires the answer "No, not all believers have the gift of speaking with tongues".
Reason 6: The Purpose of these signs was to confirm the Word of God spoken and written by the apostles as Mark 16:20 says.
"And they (apostles) went forth and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them (apostles), and confirming the Word with signs (eg. tongues) following".
Once the Word of God (the New Testament) had been confirmed by the apostles' signs, then further signs were not needed. The signs had done their job of proving the New Testament as being from God. When the Word of God was completed, then miraculous Apostolic confirmatory signs were no longer needed.
Reason 7: Mark 16:20 continues the context to mean apostles.
This describes what happened to the apostles after they changed from unbelief in Christ's resurrection to believing it and preaching it everywhere with signs following.
Hence in v.20, the context is still only the apostles doing signs, not every believer doing signs.
Conclusion. Either all 5 signs are valid for today or none are valid today. They only refer to first century apostles.
Reason 8: Tongues had ceased by 70 AD because their use is only mentioned in the earlier New Testament books, such as Mark 16 (57 AD), Acts (54 AD), 1 Corinthians (57 AD).
In all the latter books, tongues are never mentioned.
Why? Because they never happened after 70 AD and were of no relevance to any churches thereafter. Tongues are never commanded in any New Testament book for believers to practice.
1 Corinthians 12, 13, 14 rebukes the Corinthians wrong use of tongues. It is not endorsing tongues to be practiced. Charismatics think that the key to spirituality is tongues, a phenomena that is not mentioned in 24 out of 27 New Testament books.
Why are tongues ABSENT from 2 Corinthians to Revelation? If tongues were so necessary, you would definitely see them in the rest of the New Testament.
The book of Romans, which is well-known as the most complete summary of Christian doctrine and practice in the Bible, does not once mention tongues. Why not? Because tongues, by the time Romans was written (60 AD) was almost finished as a gift and would be of no relevance in the Church age after 70 AD when God judged Jerusalem.
Think about it, if tongues were important, God would have mentioned them at least once in Romans, or 2 Corinthians, or Galatians, or at least in one letter to a church in a positive context.
Reason 9: The gift of tongues was never endorsed or practiced by early church leaders.
Clement of Rome in 95 AD wrote a letter to the Corinthian church rebuking every problem that Paul rebuked except tongues. Why did he not mention tongues or miracles?
Justin Martyr (160 AD) visited many churches but never once mentions tongues, not even in his lists of spiritual gifts.
Origen (250 AD) in his voluminous writings never mentions tongues, but argues against Celsus that the sign gifts of the apostles' age were temporary and were not exercised by Christians in the 3rd Century.
Chrysostom (347-407 AD) commented on the 1 Corinthian passage: "This whole place is very obscure: but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such as then used to occur but now no longer take place." [Homilies, XXIX, 1]
Augustine (354-430 AD) said in speaking of Acts 2:4, "In the earliest times, the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spake with tongues...these were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit...that thing was done for a betokening and it passed away."
Reason 10: "Now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three..." 1 Corinthians 13:13.
Now (57AD) abides (continues) faith, hope, charity, these three" (not "these six prophecy, tongues, knowledge").
Since faith and hope finish at Christ's return, then prophecy, tongues and knowledge had to have finished by 96 AD because they were not abiding, but declining in 57 AD.
In Mark 16:14, Jesus rebukes the apostles for their unbelief in His resurrection.
In v. 11-14, four times the apostles' unbelief is mentioned as Jesus addressed the apostles:
v.11 "They (apostles), when they had heard that he was alive ......believed not".
v.13 "...neither believed they them".
v.14 "He...upbraided them (apostles) with their unbelief and hardness of heart".
v.14 "...because they (apostles) believed not them which had seen him after he was risen".
After this rebuke Jesus gives the apostles the Great Commission in v.15,16. Once the commission is given, Jesus returns to his immediate audience of the eleven apostles when He says in v.17,18 "These signs shall follow them that believe" (ie. those of you eleven apostles who believe in my resurrection).
In my name:
1. they shall cast out devils.
2. they shall speak with new tongues.
3. they shall take up serpents.
4. if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them.
5. they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.
Reason 2: Practical Experience shows that promises 3, 4, 5, are not true for every believer today. In spite of continued failure to heal Charismatics still think that these 5 promises are for every believer today.
The obvious problem with this interpretation is that it does not deal with everything mentioned in the text.
a) No Charismatic can always fulfill the 5th promise. It says that they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. This means 100% recovery all the time. No one can do this today, as the apostles could in Acts 5:12-16.
"By the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people...they (believers) brought forth the sick into the streets... and they were healed every one". v. 16.
John Wimber, a famous Charismatic, laid hands on 250 Down's Syndrome children and none were healed.
Reinhard Boncke tried to heal over 200 Kenyans and none were healed at a meeting at Kisumu.
b) "If they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them".
"If" means accidentally. The problem is that many good Christians have become sick or died by poisoning. Have you as a believer ever vomited?
c) "They shall take up serpents".
We ask a Charismatic to take up a deadly snake. He replies by saying: "No, that would be tempting God." Yet in the first century this was a sign that the apostles did (shall do) to prove the Word of God and their authority. Some believers today have died in trying this. Hence showing that this is not for today.
Reason 3: AORIST tense of "believe" in Mark 16:17 refers to those who did believe in the past, not who will believe in the future.
"These signs shall follow them that believe." The Greek word for believe here "pisteusasin" which is in aorist participle referring to those who did believe in the past".
[S. Zodhiates, "Complete New Testament Word Study Dictionary" p. 1107]
"not those who would believe in the future".
[S. Zodhiates, "Hebrew-Greek Key Word Study Bible" p.1223]
The aorist tense refers to a past action at a point in time, not an event that recurs again into the future, as it would be if it was true of all believers.
Reason 4: Belief (pisteusasin in Mark 16:17) does not refer to saving belief. In John 3:16 and 5:24 saving belief is "pisteuwn", a different word ending. Hence, "belief" in Mark 16:17 refers not to all future believers, but to the apostles believing in Christ's resurrection at a point in time, once for all time.
Reason 5: "Do all speak with tongues?" 1 Corinthians 12:30, requires the answer "No, not all believers have the gift of speaking with tongues".
Reason 6: The Purpose of these signs was to confirm the Word of God spoken and written by the apostles as Mark 16:20 says.
"And they (apostles) went forth and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them (apostles), and confirming the Word with signs (eg. tongues) following".
Once the Word of God (the New Testament) had been confirmed by the apostles' signs, then further signs were not needed. The signs had done their job of proving the New Testament as being from God. When the Word of God was completed, then miraculous Apostolic confirmatory signs were no longer needed.
Reason 7: Mark 16:20 continues the context to mean apostles.
This describes what happened to the apostles after they changed from unbelief in Christ's resurrection to believing it and preaching it everywhere with signs following.
Hence in v.20, the context is still only the apostles doing signs, not every believer doing signs.
Conclusion. Either all 5 signs are valid for today or none are valid today. They only refer to first century apostles.
Reason 8: Tongues had ceased by 70 AD because their use is only mentioned in the earlier New Testament books, such as Mark 16 (57 AD), Acts (54 AD), 1 Corinthians (57 AD).
In all the latter books, tongues are never mentioned.
Why? Because they never happened after 70 AD and were of no relevance to any churches thereafter. Tongues are never commanded in any New Testament book for believers to practice.
1 Corinthians 12, 13, 14 rebukes the Corinthians wrong use of tongues. It is not endorsing tongues to be practiced. Charismatics think that the key to spirituality is tongues, a phenomena that is not mentioned in 24 out of 27 New Testament books.
Why are tongues ABSENT from 2 Corinthians to Revelation? If tongues were so necessary, you would definitely see them in the rest of the New Testament.
The book of Romans, which is well-known as the most complete summary of Christian doctrine and practice in the Bible, does not once mention tongues. Why not? Because tongues, by the time Romans was written (60 AD) was almost finished as a gift and would be of no relevance in the Church age after 70 AD when God judged Jerusalem.
Think about it, if tongues were important, God would have mentioned them at least once in Romans, or 2 Corinthians, or Galatians, or at least in one letter to a church in a positive context.
Reason 9: The gift of tongues was never endorsed or practiced by early church leaders.
Clement of Rome in 95 AD wrote a letter to the Corinthian church rebuking every problem that Paul rebuked except tongues. Why did he not mention tongues or miracles?
Justin Martyr (160 AD) visited many churches but never once mentions tongues, not even in his lists of spiritual gifts.
Origen (250 AD) in his voluminous writings never mentions tongues, but argues against Celsus that the sign gifts of the apostles' age were temporary and were not exercised by Christians in the 3rd Century.
Chrysostom (347-407 AD) commented on the 1 Corinthian passage: "This whole place is very obscure: but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such as then used to occur but now no longer take place." [Homilies, XXIX, 1]
Augustine (354-430 AD) said in speaking of Acts 2:4, "In the earliest times, the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spake with tongues...these were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit...that thing was done for a betokening and it passed away."
Reason 10: "Now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three..." 1 Corinthians 13:13.
Now (57AD) abides (continues) faith, hope, charity, these three" (not "these six prophecy, tongues, knowledge").
Since faith and hope finish at Christ's return, then prophecy, tongues and knowledge had to have finished by 96 AD because they were not abiding, but declining in 57 AD.
Saturday, February 5, 2011
Reasons That Tongues Ceased in the First Century
1. Tongues were a sign of judgment against Jewish unbelief as a nation
With the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., God's judgment on Israel had been executed and the tongues gift as a sign of coming judgment on Israel was no longer relevant.
"Wherefore, tongues are for a sign NOT to them that believe, but to them that believe not"... 1 Corinthians 14:22.
"In the law it is written, with men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people (Jews); and yet for all that (all the tongues) will they (Jews) not hear me (warning ignored), sayeth the Lord". 1 Corinthians 14:21.
Tongues here clearly are a warning to the Jews that they ignore.
1 Corinthians 14:21 is quoting from:
i) Deuteronomy 28:49 where God warns of judgment coming from "a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand".
ii) Jeremiah 5:15. "Lo I will bring a nation upon you from afar...a nation whose language thou knowest not..." (612 BC) Hence, Babylonian tongues warned Jews of coming judgment.
iii) Isaiah 28:11,12. "With another tongue will he speak to his people." (712 BC). Here, Assyrian tongues warned the Jews of coming judgment.
iv) Isaiah 33:19. "Thou shall not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive: of a stammering tongue that thou canst not understand".
Here the absence of foreign tongues will be a sign that Israel is under God's blessing. Paul applies the Jewish unbelief of Isaiah 28:11, 12 from 712 BC to the first century Jewish unbelief. "This people", "they", "them that believe not" all refers to Jews. There were many Jews at Corinth who did not believe (Acts 18). Hence, tongues were a sign of future judgment to the Jews.
2. There are three major outbreaks of miracles in Scripture:
i) Moses and Joshua (1441-1370 BC) of about 71 years duration.
ii) Elijah and Elisha (870-785 BC) of about 85 years duration.
iii) Christ and the Apostles (28-70 AD) of about 42 years duration.
Continuous miracles in the Bible are the exception, and do not occur always but in three periods.
The miraculous gift of tongues occurred from 30-70 AD.
3. Tongues belonged to the infant days of the church.
"But when I became a man, I put away childish things" 1 Corinthians 13:11.
Tongues (along with prophesy and knowledge) would cease when the church became mature. The childhood days of the church ended, when Israel as a nation was judged. Then there was no longer any need for a sign to authenticate the apostles' message (Mark 16:17-20) which started the church. Nor was there need for a sign against the extinct Jewish nation.
The gifts of tongues, miracles, healing, etc. had stopped by 70 AD, but of course God still performs miracles and heals as He chooses today in answer to prayer. Since some foundational gifts were temporary, tongues, a lesser miraculous gift, was temporary also.
4. Tongues authenticates the apostles' message as from God.
"And they (apostles) went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs (tongues, healing, exorcism, etc.) following. Amen. "Mark 16:20"'
Today the need for tongues has ceased. God has authenticated the apostles and the New Testament that they penned. This proves the temporary nature of tongues.
5. Hebrews 6:5 shows that the only other age of miracles will be the Millennium described as "the powers of the age to come".
Q. What are the powers?
A. The word rendered "powers" is "dynameis" in Greek, which is the usual New Testament word for miracles. These people had tasted, experienced, or witnessed the apostles' miracles.
Q. What is the "age to come"?
A. A common Hebrew expression for the millennium where the Messiah will rule as King on earth.
Q. Why therefore are miracles referred to as "powers of the age to come"?
A. Because they would not characterize the church age (which Hebrews 6:5 was quoted in), but the millennial Kingdom age to come.
6. Hebrews 2:3, 4 shows miracles (such as tongues) to be in the past tense, and not continuously being experienced by the Hebrew Christians of 64 AD.
"How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation which:
1) At the first began to be spoken by the Lord (Jesus' 3 year ministry) and
2) Was (past tense) confirmed (same as Mark 16:20) unto us (second generation Christians) by them (apostles and first generation Christians) that heard him (Jesus Christ),
3) God also bearing them (the apostles, not us or every generation of Christians) witness, both with signs (eg. tongues, miracles, healings, etc.) and wonders, and with divers miracles (miracles belonged to the apostles, not to every Christian. II Corinthians 12:12), and gifts of the Holy Ghost (eg. the temporary miraculous gifts), according to His own will".
a) Notice the phrase "at the first". This gives the time element which governs all these signs, miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost.
b) All Greek verbs in Hebrews 2:3, 4 are in the aorist tense indicating a past completed act which can never be repeated.
7. This is also seen in Acts 11:15, where Peter describes tongues at Cornelius household, not as a regular occurrence weekly in every church, but only something that happened last time at Pentecost (Acts 2) "as on us at the beginning".
and described in that way in v. 19, 20.
"And these signs shall follow...them (apostles because the context of v. 11, 14 shows unbelieving apostles four times) that believe; ...they shall speak with new tongues. v. 17.
"This refutes the Charismatic idea that everybody who believes all through the Church age should speak in tongues, lay hands on the sick and they shall recover, etc., because this belief only refers to the unbelieving apostles in v. 11-14 who refused to believe in Christ's resurrection (v.11). This continues as part of Christ's rebuke to the apostles' for "their unbelief and hardness of heart" v.14.
If we fail to read the entire context of Mark 16:9-20 we may get the impression that the v. 17, 18 sign gifts apply to all believers. There is good evidence that "them that believe" refers to only the apostles. Why?
With the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., God's judgment on Israel had been executed and the tongues gift as a sign of coming judgment on Israel was no longer relevant.
"Wherefore, tongues are for a sign NOT to them that believe, but to them that believe not"... 1 Corinthians 14:22.
"In the law it is written, with men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people (Jews); and yet for all that (all the tongues) will they (Jews) not hear me (warning ignored), sayeth the Lord". 1 Corinthians 14:21.
Tongues here clearly are a warning to the Jews that they ignore.
1 Corinthians 14:21 is quoting from:
i) Deuteronomy 28:49 where God warns of judgment coming from "a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand".
ii) Jeremiah 5:15. "Lo I will bring a nation upon you from afar...a nation whose language thou knowest not..." (612 BC) Hence, Babylonian tongues warned Jews of coming judgment.
iii) Isaiah 28:11,12. "With another tongue will he speak to his people." (712 BC). Here, Assyrian tongues warned the Jews of coming judgment.
iv) Isaiah 33:19. "Thou shall not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive: of a stammering tongue that thou canst not understand".
Here the absence of foreign tongues will be a sign that Israel is under God's blessing. Paul applies the Jewish unbelief of Isaiah 28:11, 12 from 712 BC to the first century Jewish unbelief. "This people", "they", "them that believe not" all refers to Jews. There were many Jews at Corinth who did not believe (Acts 18). Hence, tongues were a sign of future judgment to the Jews.
2. There are three major outbreaks of miracles in Scripture:
i) Moses and Joshua (1441-1370 BC) of about 71 years duration.
ii) Elijah and Elisha (870-785 BC) of about 85 years duration.
iii) Christ and the Apostles (28-70 AD) of about 42 years duration.
Continuous miracles in the Bible are the exception, and do not occur always but in three periods.
The miraculous gift of tongues occurred from 30-70 AD.
3. Tongues belonged to the infant days of the church.
"But when I became a man, I put away childish things" 1 Corinthians 13:11.
Tongues (along with prophesy and knowledge) would cease when the church became mature. The childhood days of the church ended, when Israel as a nation was judged. Then there was no longer any need for a sign to authenticate the apostles' message (Mark 16:17-20) which started the church. Nor was there need for a sign against the extinct Jewish nation.
The gifts of tongues, miracles, healing, etc. had stopped by 70 AD, but of course God still performs miracles and heals as He chooses today in answer to prayer. Since some foundational gifts were temporary, tongues, a lesser miraculous gift, was temporary also.
4. Tongues authenticates the apostles' message as from God.
"And they (apostles) went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs (tongues, healing, exorcism, etc.) following. Amen. "Mark 16:20"'
Today the need for tongues has ceased. God has authenticated the apostles and the New Testament that they penned. This proves the temporary nature of tongues.
5. Hebrews 6:5 shows that the only other age of miracles will be the Millennium described as "the powers of the age to come".
Q. What are the powers?
A. The word rendered "powers" is "dynameis" in Greek, which is the usual New Testament word for miracles. These people had tasted, experienced, or witnessed the apostles' miracles.
Q. What is the "age to come"?
A. A common Hebrew expression for the millennium where the Messiah will rule as King on earth.
Q. Why therefore are miracles referred to as "powers of the age to come"?
A. Because they would not characterize the church age (which Hebrews 6:5 was quoted in), but the millennial Kingdom age to come.
6. Hebrews 2:3, 4 shows miracles (such as tongues) to be in the past tense, and not continuously being experienced by the Hebrew Christians of 64 AD.
"How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation which:
1) At the first began to be spoken by the Lord (Jesus' 3 year ministry) and
2) Was (past tense) confirmed (same as Mark 16:20) unto us (second generation Christians) by them (apostles and first generation Christians) that heard him (Jesus Christ),
3) God also bearing them (the apostles, not us or every generation of Christians) witness, both with signs (eg. tongues, miracles, healings, etc.) and wonders, and with divers miracles (miracles belonged to the apostles, not to every Christian. II Corinthians 12:12), and gifts of the Holy Ghost (eg. the temporary miraculous gifts), according to His own will".
a) Notice the phrase "at the first". This gives the time element which governs all these signs, miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost.
b) All Greek verbs in Hebrews 2:3, 4 are in the aorist tense indicating a past completed act which can never be repeated.
7. This is also seen in Acts 11:15, where Peter describes tongues at Cornelius household, not as a regular occurrence weekly in every church, but only something that happened last time at Pentecost (Acts 2) "as on us at the beginning".
and described in that way in v. 19, 20.
"And these signs shall follow...them (apostles because the context of v. 11, 14 shows unbelieving apostles four times) that believe; ...they shall speak with new tongues. v. 17.
"This refutes the Charismatic idea that everybody who believes all through the Church age should speak in tongues, lay hands on the sick and they shall recover, etc., because this belief only refers to the unbelieving apostles in v. 11-14 who refused to believe in Christ's resurrection (v.11). This continues as part of Christ's rebuke to the apostles' for "their unbelief and hardness of heart" v.14.
If we fail to read the entire context of Mark 16:9-20 we may get the impression that the v. 17, 18 sign gifts apply to all believers. There is good evidence that "them that believe" refers to only the apostles. Why?
Saturday, January 15, 2011
Nobody Just Wakes Up One Day and Says ...
...I think I'll join a cult today! It just happens.
J.D. Fouirie says ... I have been following your blog for some time and every article has been hitting closer to home. Our family is involved in a Victory Church in South Africa and it is becoming more and more demonic each week. Our children have no time for anything or anyone but the church and the people there. Keep putting out the word of what can happen when Christians sleep.
Pierre & Mairie Tremblay say ... We as Christians are given "free-will" and it is unfortunate that Satan can use this "free-will" to blind us and lead us down the garden path into these non-Scriptural churches. We were fortunate to have had some discernment when this phenomena started coming into our youth group. Our Board took action and disciplined the Youth Pastor who promptly quit and disappeared only to resurface in a very charismatic church in another town. We are in communication with them about the phenomenon and are waiting to see their next steps.
Norman Whitehead says ... You certainly find interesting people to quote in your blog. The fact that you are taking so much time to research is really quite amazing and the teachings are invaluable for us. We are now fully aware that our church is one of these non-biblical teaching ones and we will be moving out of their influence in the New Year.
Frank Davis says ... We should be running from these churches as fast as we can. It is easy to be taken in by the emotional high every week until it is not enough. By the time you realize that you are involved it is too late.
Lynda LeFountaine says... How true! Experiences should never be taken over doctrine and Biblical truths.
Amelia Thornton-Smythe says... Great parable on how God views "free will" and what happens when we make the wrong choices. We have left a Victory Church in California for exactly the reasons that you have been extolling on your blog. Thank you.
Cindy Browning says... Well-said! I am sending your blog link to members of my family who think that they are in a Bible-believing church while in fact they are involved in a splinter Pentecostal group. Keep up the good words.
T. Smith says ... Allowing free will is part of God's plan. When we don't choose the correct one, consequences follow. These questions are all valid and the well-thought-out responses give food for thought to all those who are involved in a Pentecostal/Charismatic church that is leading them astray.
Douglas O'Bryan says ... I have enjoyed reading the perspectives voiced in the last few posts. It is very interesting to figure out how some people get so off-track with their Christian experience. Let's hope that somehow God will use this information to help those who are struggling with being in these churches.
Christine Follwell says ... Terrific information. I am sending this to our son who is in a Victory Church in Southhampton, UK.
Walter & Carin Crosbie say ... How true, how true. Our children have been drawn into one of these charismatic churches believing that they are all being spoken to by the Lord. They had a brief time of prosperity but in the last year, the church has taken everything from them. If only we had been aware earlier, we might have been able to prevent it. They are now living with their "spiritual" parents and we feel that it is more of a commune than something that will help them get back on their feet. We cannot get them to listen to us. If only, if only we had found your blog earlier.
Auriel & Davis Roebothom say ... We are absolutely dumbfounded by what we are reading about Pentecostal/Charismatics here in your blog. It is obvious that there has been a lot research into the articles; however, nonetheless, it is still appalling that this can be going on in what some people view as main-stream Christian churches. After spending several hours reviewing your blog, we have come to realize that we are in a fringe-church -- not all the way down the road but we do have the speaking in tongues and slain in the spirit actions going on. We thank you for taking the time to do all this research. We will be looking for a new church.
Ryan Schneider says ... What a relevant topic today! We spent Christmas Eve with our family at their church (which I am now sure is demon-possessed) and both my wife and I were afraid at the heaviness and despair that seemed to ooze from everyone in attendance at the service. We've never been involved with "speaking in tongues" and certainly not on Christmas Eve. We hadn't seen our children for over a year as they had moved out of state with my son-in-law's job and our conversations with them had not indicated to us what they were involved in. We are praying that their eyes will be opened before it is too late. We did try to talk to them but who wants to ruin Christmas with religious disagreements. We will continue to research some of the books and authors that you have mentioned so that we can be prepared when they come home for my wife's birthday in February. Thank you.
Paul & Annie Potter say ...It is really obvious that you have taken a lot of time to research about the Pentecostal/charismatic movements. I believe that your concerns are genuine and it is really too bad that these influences are sneaking into the main stream churches each and every week. All we can do is pray for God to intervene sooner rather than let all of these Christians continue to be deceived. Your blog is a good starting point for discussion in our small group and we have permission from our pastor to use it starting this month.
Bryan Ingersoll says ... This is absolutely insane. I cannot believe that so many people (including some of our family) have been suckered into this. We cannot get any of them to listen to reason about what is really going on in their churches ... and they are mixed up in a number of different ones. Thank you for sharing. We will be continuing to follow your blog for more information that may help us get our family out of these churches. By the way, these churches are spread throughout Canada from coast to coast. [We know. This problem is huge and needs to be confronted at every turn until it is eliminated.]
Caroline Whyte says ... Thank you for publishing these recent articles. It has opened our eyes to what is going on in our church. I am appalled that we were part of those who were deceived by the leaders. We need to get out but it will be hard for our children to leave their friends.
Y & C Caron say ... We have been following your blog since the beginning and have really been most upset by what is going on. Some of the comments are so heart wrenching and we really didn't think that we could possibly have been drawn into a church such as these. Well, on New Year's Eve, in our service, our new pastor started "gobbledegooking" all over the place. Over half of our congregation was in shock, some left, some started shouting at the pastor ... it was AWFUL!!! We vetted this pastor ... had no idea that he believed in such a thing ... and now the Board is trying to figure out what to do next! All of our Board are now researching and we have started with your blog, library and comments. Thank you, thank you, thank you .. and all because we originally looked up Joel Osteen and your blog came up!
Jay Jurgens says ... We were absolutely astounded by this information. We know now that some of our family are involved in one of these demon-possessed churches. Now, how do we get them out? [Getting them out will be no easy task as I have found out myself. The whole purpose of this blog from the beginning has been to provide information and make my family aware of what is going on and that's about all you can do. You have to pray and leave the rest to God. He's the only One who can ultimately achieve anything in the situation. When Satan gets his claws into your family, it is not easy to get them out. Pray, pray, pray.]
Ira Grahame says ... Thank you, thank you, thank you. God has opened our children's eyes and they have left their church ... it only took a whole year of sending them your blog information!
Ann, Joe & Michayla Goodman say ... We were so fortunate to have found your blog when we were researching Kenneth Copeland. We have several friends who have gotten involved with splinter churches and did not realize how wide-spread this issue is. We have sent your link to our friends and we are hopefully praying that this will cause them to see some reason. Do you have any literature on how to help them extricate themselves from this? [This blog contains an extensive library of books that can help you with this problem. The first book appeared on January 10, 2010's blog.]
Sandy & Alex Rizer say ... How sad to read the comments from the people who have been drawn into these fringe churches. We were so appalled when we read the list of false teachers here and realized that even though we aren't actually involved in one of these churches, we were watching some of these T.V. charlatans for years. Thank you for opening our eyes.
Terry Kincaid says ... We have been watching your blog for some time and are extremely interested in the perspectives that you put out. We have always known that some of our family are involved but had no idea of what could possibly happen to them if they stay in these fringe churches. Thank you so much for posting and we have sent the link to your blog to the ones who we believe are in these churches. We pray that their eyes will be opened.
Doreen Crossen says ... I have now realized that I am part of the problem because I attend one of the Victory churches and part of my "job" is to recruit unhappy Christians from other churches. I have brought over 20 families into our church over the last three years. Another part of my job was to follow your blog and see what was being put out about us. What your blog has done is made me realize that we are wrong. I don't know how to make it right but I am going to try. Don't let anyone strop you from continuing...this is a valuable service and I know that I would not be aware without it.
Winston Campbell says ... How sad to read some of these comments. We are just finishing up bankruptcy proceedings after tithing over 50% of our income to the church. We were fortunate that we did not lose our home but everything else we worked so hard for is gone. We wish that we had found your blog earlier but all we can say is that if people are in one of these churches .. Get OUT .. do not TITHE 50% of your income .. do not LOSE your family because the church takes over your lives. We are starting over .. and will be very careful about what church we attend in the future.
L. Tidemann says ... Incredible. These churches keep growing because they are the "feel good" churches .. and draw people deeper and deeper into their mysticism until they cannot get out. Keep writing, Brother Poo-Bah!
Kale McDonnell says ... I wish that I had found your blog before I signed up to become a pastor in a Rhema church. Turns out I was totally deceived until I had signed away my entire life..literally to this corrupt organization. I am now totally against anything related to these churches and would strongly warn everyone to research, research, research before getting involved. [Shun anything to do with Rhema. If you have a Rhema Bible, burn it. If you possess any literature out of Oral Roberts University, burn it. That way nobody else will fall prey to their false teachings.]
Sonya Irish says ... I have read the comments and I am so sorry for all of these people who were taken in. I, myself, spent a number of years in one of these churches. When my eyes were opened (thankfully by the true Lord), it took all of my strength to pull away. I was ostracised, ridiculed and harassed for a number of years. Fortunately, I found a good Christian counsellor who helped me get my life back on track. I am now better off emotionally, physically and financially than I ever was. For anyone trying to get it .. it is not easy .. but there is help for you.
Edward Martin says ... Some of these stories are just incredible; however, having just been released from the bondage of a Victory church in Alberta after over 10 years of being blinded, we are very grateful that the Lord opened our eyes to what was really going on there. It took the death of our diabetic daughter to make us realize that faith is part of the healing process but we are not to be so naive as to ignore modern medicine that could have prevented such a tragedy. We are so sorry that it took such a beautiful girl's death to make us see!
Thomas Joeren says ... Bah! These people really have no idea what they are bringing into their lives and it is NOT from God. They have opened themselves up to demons and ultimately Satan. My sister-in-law and family were part of a "church" that insisted that all members do some unmentionable things with the end result being she became so despondent over it that she committed suicide. We cannot yet get over her loss.
The Grand Poo-Bah says ... Dr. Phil's Life Law #1 says: You either get it, or you don't. Become one of those who gets it. Sometimes God will hit us over the head with a 2 x 4 to get our attention as He did in some of these stories. These comments run the gamut from financial ruin to suicide and unnecessary death. Life Law #4 says: You cannot change what you do not acknowledge. Get real with yourself about life and everybody in it. There is no time like the present to leave Satan and his cohorts behind. Stop speaking in tongues (gibberish). I am reminded of a billboard sign that I saw on the way to Florida which said "Always remember, when you find yourself going in the wrong direction, Christ accepts U-turns." If you are currently involved with anything that resembles any of the comments made in this blog, you need to make it a part of your past. Life Law #5 says: "Life rewards action." Take action to pull your life out of the ditch and put it back on the rails. It is time to secure your eternity which is in jeopardy as long as you remain under the influence of Satan at Victory churches.
J.D. Fouirie says ... I have been following your blog for some time and every article has been hitting closer to home. Our family is involved in a Victory Church in South Africa and it is becoming more and more demonic each week. Our children have no time for anything or anyone but the church and the people there. Keep putting out the word of what can happen when Christians sleep.
Pierre & Mairie Tremblay say ... We as Christians are given "free-will" and it is unfortunate that Satan can use this "free-will" to blind us and lead us down the garden path into these non-Scriptural churches. We were fortunate to have had some discernment when this phenomena started coming into our youth group. Our Board took action and disciplined the Youth Pastor who promptly quit and disappeared only to resurface in a very charismatic church in another town. We are in communication with them about the phenomenon and are waiting to see their next steps.
Norman Whitehead says ... You certainly find interesting people to quote in your blog. The fact that you are taking so much time to research is really quite amazing and the teachings are invaluable for us. We are now fully aware that our church is one of these non-biblical teaching ones and we will be moving out of their influence in the New Year.
Frank Davis says ... We should be running from these churches as fast as we can. It is easy to be taken in by the emotional high every week until it is not enough. By the time you realize that you are involved it is too late.
Lynda LeFountaine says... How true! Experiences should never be taken over doctrine and Biblical truths.
Amelia Thornton-Smythe says... Great parable on how God views "free will" and what happens when we make the wrong choices. We have left a Victory Church in California for exactly the reasons that you have been extolling on your blog. Thank you.
Cindy Browning says... Well-said! I am sending your blog link to members of my family who think that they are in a Bible-believing church while in fact they are involved in a splinter Pentecostal group. Keep up the good words.
T. Smith says ... Allowing free will is part of God's plan. When we don't choose the correct one, consequences follow. These questions are all valid and the well-thought-out responses give food for thought to all those who are involved in a Pentecostal/Charismatic church that is leading them astray.
Douglas O'Bryan says ... I have enjoyed reading the perspectives voiced in the last few posts. It is very interesting to figure out how some people get so off-track with their Christian experience. Let's hope that somehow God will use this information to help those who are struggling with being in these churches.
Christine Follwell says ... Terrific information. I am sending this to our son who is in a Victory Church in Southhampton, UK.
Walter & Carin Crosbie say ... How true, how true. Our children have been drawn into one of these charismatic churches believing that they are all being spoken to by the Lord. They had a brief time of prosperity but in the last year, the church has taken everything from them. If only we had been aware earlier, we might have been able to prevent it. They are now living with their "spiritual" parents and we feel that it is more of a commune than something that will help them get back on their feet. We cannot get them to listen to us. If only, if only we had found your blog earlier.
Auriel & Davis Roebothom say ... We are absolutely dumbfounded by what we are reading about Pentecostal/Charismatics here in your blog. It is obvious that there has been a lot research into the articles; however, nonetheless, it is still appalling that this can be going on in what some people view as main-stream Christian churches. After spending several hours reviewing your blog, we have come to realize that we are in a fringe-church -- not all the way down the road but we do have the speaking in tongues and slain in the spirit actions going on. We thank you for taking the time to do all this research. We will be looking for a new church.
Ryan Schneider says ... What a relevant topic today! We spent Christmas Eve with our family at their church (which I am now sure is demon-possessed) and both my wife and I were afraid at the heaviness and despair that seemed to ooze from everyone in attendance at the service. We've never been involved with "speaking in tongues" and certainly not on Christmas Eve. We hadn't seen our children for over a year as they had moved out of state with my son-in-law's job and our conversations with them had not indicated to us what they were involved in. We are praying that their eyes will be opened before it is too late. We did try to talk to them but who wants to ruin Christmas with religious disagreements. We will continue to research some of the books and authors that you have mentioned so that we can be prepared when they come home for my wife's birthday in February. Thank you.
Paul & Annie Potter say ...It is really obvious that you have taken a lot of time to research about the Pentecostal/charismatic movements. I believe that your concerns are genuine and it is really too bad that these influences are sneaking into the main stream churches each and every week. All we can do is pray for God to intervene sooner rather than let all of these Christians continue to be deceived. Your blog is a good starting point for discussion in our small group and we have permission from our pastor to use it starting this month.
Bryan Ingersoll says ... This is absolutely insane. I cannot believe that so many people (including some of our family) have been suckered into this. We cannot get any of them to listen to reason about what is really going on in their churches ... and they are mixed up in a number of different ones. Thank you for sharing. We will be continuing to follow your blog for more information that may help us get our family out of these churches. By the way, these churches are spread throughout Canada from coast to coast. [We know. This problem is huge and needs to be confronted at every turn until it is eliminated.]
Caroline Whyte says ... Thank you for publishing these recent articles. It has opened our eyes to what is going on in our church. I am appalled that we were part of those who were deceived by the leaders. We need to get out but it will be hard for our children to leave their friends.
Y & C Caron say ... We have been following your blog since the beginning and have really been most upset by what is going on. Some of the comments are so heart wrenching and we really didn't think that we could possibly have been drawn into a church such as these. Well, on New Year's Eve, in our service, our new pastor started "gobbledegooking" all over the place. Over half of our congregation was in shock, some left, some started shouting at the pastor ... it was AWFUL!!! We vetted this pastor ... had no idea that he believed in such a thing ... and now the Board is trying to figure out what to do next! All of our Board are now researching and we have started with your blog, library and comments. Thank you, thank you, thank you .. and all because we originally looked up Joel Osteen and your blog came up!
Jay Jurgens says ... We were absolutely astounded by this information. We know now that some of our family are involved in one of these demon-possessed churches. Now, how do we get them out? [Getting them out will be no easy task as I have found out myself. The whole purpose of this blog from the beginning has been to provide information and make my family aware of what is going on and that's about all you can do. You have to pray and leave the rest to God. He's the only One who can ultimately achieve anything in the situation. When Satan gets his claws into your family, it is not easy to get them out. Pray, pray, pray.]
Ira Grahame says ... Thank you, thank you, thank you. God has opened our children's eyes and they have left their church ... it only took a whole year of sending them your blog information!
Ann, Joe & Michayla Goodman say ... We were so fortunate to have found your blog when we were researching Kenneth Copeland. We have several friends who have gotten involved with splinter churches and did not realize how wide-spread this issue is. We have sent your link to our friends and we are hopefully praying that this will cause them to see some reason. Do you have any literature on how to help them extricate themselves from this? [This blog contains an extensive library of books that can help you with this problem. The first book appeared on January 10, 2010's blog.]
Sandy & Alex Rizer say ... How sad to read the comments from the people who have been drawn into these fringe churches. We were so appalled when we read the list of false teachers here and realized that even though we aren't actually involved in one of these churches, we were watching some of these T.V. charlatans for years. Thank you for opening our eyes.
Terry Kincaid says ... We have been watching your blog for some time and are extremely interested in the perspectives that you put out. We have always known that some of our family are involved but had no idea of what could possibly happen to them if they stay in these fringe churches. Thank you so much for posting and we have sent the link to your blog to the ones who we believe are in these churches. We pray that their eyes will be opened.
Doreen Crossen says ... I have now realized that I am part of the problem because I attend one of the Victory churches and part of my "job" is to recruit unhappy Christians from other churches. I have brought over 20 families into our church over the last three years. Another part of my job was to follow your blog and see what was being put out about us. What your blog has done is made me realize that we are wrong. I don't know how to make it right but I am going to try. Don't let anyone strop you from continuing...this is a valuable service and I know that I would not be aware without it.
Winston Campbell says ... How sad to read some of these comments. We are just finishing up bankruptcy proceedings after tithing over 50% of our income to the church. We were fortunate that we did not lose our home but everything else we worked so hard for is gone. We wish that we had found your blog earlier but all we can say is that if people are in one of these churches .. Get OUT .. do not TITHE 50% of your income .. do not LOSE your family because the church takes over your lives. We are starting over .. and will be very careful about what church we attend in the future.
L. Tidemann says ... Incredible. These churches keep growing because they are the "feel good" churches .. and draw people deeper and deeper into their mysticism until they cannot get out. Keep writing, Brother Poo-Bah!
Kale McDonnell says ... I wish that I had found your blog before I signed up to become a pastor in a Rhema church. Turns out I was totally deceived until I had signed away my entire life..literally to this corrupt organization. I am now totally against anything related to these churches and would strongly warn everyone to research, research, research before getting involved. [Shun anything to do with Rhema. If you have a Rhema Bible, burn it. If you possess any literature out of Oral Roberts University, burn it. That way nobody else will fall prey to their false teachings.]
Sonya Irish says ... I have read the comments and I am so sorry for all of these people who were taken in. I, myself, spent a number of years in one of these churches. When my eyes were opened (thankfully by the true Lord), it took all of my strength to pull away. I was ostracised, ridiculed and harassed for a number of years. Fortunately, I found a good Christian counsellor who helped me get my life back on track. I am now better off emotionally, physically and financially than I ever was. For anyone trying to get it .. it is not easy .. but there is help for you.
Edward Martin says ... Some of these stories are just incredible; however, having just been released from the bondage of a Victory church in Alberta after over 10 years of being blinded, we are very grateful that the Lord opened our eyes to what was really going on there. It took the death of our diabetic daughter to make us realize that faith is part of the healing process but we are not to be so naive as to ignore modern medicine that could have prevented such a tragedy. We are so sorry that it took such a beautiful girl's death to make us see!
Thomas Joeren says ... Bah! These people really have no idea what they are bringing into their lives and it is NOT from God. They have opened themselves up to demons and ultimately Satan. My sister-in-law and family were part of a "church" that insisted that all members do some unmentionable things with the end result being she became so despondent over it that she committed suicide. We cannot yet get over her loss.
The Grand Poo-Bah says ... Dr. Phil's Life Law #1 says: You either get it, or you don't. Become one of those who gets it. Sometimes God will hit us over the head with a 2 x 4 to get our attention as He did in some of these stories. These comments run the gamut from financial ruin to suicide and unnecessary death. Life Law #4 says: You cannot change what you do not acknowledge. Get real with yourself about life and everybody in it. There is no time like the present to leave Satan and his cohorts behind. Stop speaking in tongues (gibberish). I am reminded of a billboard sign that I saw on the way to Florida which said "Always remember, when you find yourself going in the wrong direction, Christ accepts U-turns." If you are currently involved with anything that resembles any of the comments made in this blog, you need to make it a part of your past. Life Law #5 says: "Life rewards action." Take action to pull your life out of the ditch and put it back on the rails. It is time to secure your eternity which is in jeopardy as long as you remain under the influence of Satan at Victory churches.
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